Pax's Alternate History Snippet repository.

ATP · Jul 3, 2021

Allen would never rule China,becouse he is not chineese.Unless he get good army of foreigh troops,maybe Manchur? but why should they help him?
So,he need chineese puppet.

Imperator Pax · Jul 10, 2021

Late October 1913
--

He doubted that even if all hundred of them had been here that they'd be making more progress. As it was they might even be making less. Shellman had left for the United States to hopefully recruit doctors and nurses. He had outlined a table of organization, that had been somewhat contentious because he wanted to buy X rays. That hadn't been the only problem. They did need vets, and dental was needed as well... though how important immediately it would be was debatable... and they had debated it. Shellman's idea of three nurses to every doctor had been contentious too, in both directions. A dozen doctors had been what people had agreed on, people doctors they needed horse doctors but those might need to be recruited later.

Then of course there was the issue of chemists... which was a whole other headache. That was the problem was that it was far from the only one to contend with. Technically it was a labor corp despite being about a thousand men, but it was a body of men to support the armed 'wing' without pulling miners... not that there would have been a shortage of available colliers to come along for this.

Qirui was still chasing Bai Lang, but the red leg wasn't having much luck. That was a pity. Allen would have been quite happy to hear that Qirui's krupps had given a shot at least. There had been a few skirmishes between Qirui's forward most brigade from time to time, but the Jia never wanted to stand and fight and just lead the Beiyang vanguard on a merry chase if given the opportunity.

It was also obvious what Yuan was going to do. The south's rebelliousness was squashed at least for the season, so he could afford to bring more troops around. He had to because he was losing face, or at least he was perceiving himself to be. Bai Lang's propaganda didn't help, and it was trickling into the newspapers, which didn't make Yuan any happier.

Qirui's problem though wasn't just he didn't have the mobility to catch Bai Lang it was the fact that there was little coordination with the provincial divisions, and militia and so. The governors were really opposed to stripping their prized troops from protecting their own homes with Bai on the lose just because Qirui wanted the troops. Yuan might have been able to make them obey, but Qirui couldn't and the best he was getting were slow moving dregs that did him no good at all. Putting them in the field at all risked Bai Lang's Jia rounding and attacking those less well trained troops, and either turning them, or just defeating them and taking their weapons.

Allen glanced at the prepared excercise field. It ran counter to US doctrine of aggressive maneuvering that had been ingrained in him. Baker Company of the 1st were currently moving back and forth down the breastworks as the battalion maxims fired towards sackcloth enemies. When they had started this up there had been plans for two regiments, fifteen hundred men each, to form a single on paper brigade. The issue had been in the volunteers, and that was why the drilled volunteers who were designated the larger regiments 3rd and 4th were those despite ... 2nd Regiment still in training.

The only reason 1st wasn't still in more training... more formal training was the body of men available from the rail protection force that had seen through in the Xinhai. 2nd Regiment was a more standardized curriculum built from the ground up. Cole leaned on the bannister of the excercise oversight post. "They're doing well. I agree about the night time raid being a problem though."

He had been about to say something to that when the telephone rang with Sheridan on the other line. "We're suspending the test. We are at rounds complete." The signals officer announced as the Maxims fell silent.

"Allocated ammunition is expended?" Cole asked.

Allen nodded, because that was one more thing the committee was quibbling over. "How'd your boys do Cole?"

He scoffed, "I wouldn't call anything we did out west even a skirmish. Don't get me wrong Abel Company is very well drilled in marching and shooting, but we didn't see anything like you did." He shook his head, "Sheridan's Company will be really where we need to check on."

There were six Infantry Companies in their 1st Regiment. There would be six in the second as well... whenever they finished up... and whenever they had enough Mausers to arm them.... because that was the plan to arm all the infantry there on a standard rifle. "He held the fort down while we were gone." They had left both Company Cs behind as a rear guard while both A and B companies of each battalions had been out in the field.

"Don't get me wrong," Cole replied, "he did that... but that was sort of the idea of having the reservists in the first place." It had been argued as forward thinking. Realistically they were going to need that kind of manpower just because well with XIan line finished now they had a line running deep into the interior of the old country. "Weather is changing and Bai Lang isn't going to be able to quarter that many horses either that far south, or that close to the coast. Yuan's expansion to the army is going to cause him to spend money, which means he'll try and throw them at the problem... and that could cause problems where they end up getting run where Yuan doesn't have as strong control, and we know Hayashi is up to something."

... that was ultimately the elephant in the room though. Bai Lang was a threat, and had truly massive horde... and they were banking on him being unable to concentrate it in anyone place for fear of the Beiyang who were even larger in total strength.. "I don't like the idea that he's that far south, but again that far south isn't our problem."

"Its too easy for him to get something in through Shanghai, or Canton's ports, damn what John Jordan thinks." Which was the unfortunate truth. Arms smuggling into China to supply rebels didn't just come through the concession ports like Shanghai or Canto... up from French IndoChina through Yunan, "Cai was listed in Shinozaki's files,"

"He's under House Arrest isn't he?" Which was true enough, but his removal, as demonstrated by Yuan's own forced retirement during the last years of the Qing certainly didn't mean that the former governor lacked influence in his province, or with the military. "The official charges are what, embezzlement?"

"Yeah, well no, think its misuse of government funds. Cai apparently had purchased some Hotchkiss Guns, which ended up being used against Beiyang troops. He may or may not have been responsible for sourcing those Danish Madsens, but that'd be a chore to prove." And no one cared that much one way or another.

Commentary: This is a short update. I am hoping to get back on a regular schedule of updates for the next week, but it might very well be the 19th before I'm back to a regular schedule if not later. I have content to post, I'd just prefer it not get into the habit of updating the same thing every single day or thereabout. I'll be trying to update JumpChain tomorrow though.

Imperator Pax · Jul 10, 2021

ATP said:
Allen would never rule China,becouse he is not chineese.Unless he get good army of foreigh troops,maybe Manchur? but why should they help him?
So,he need chineese puppet.

White Wolf takes place chronologically, well let me put it this way... this timeline is plotted up and out through the 60s. I haven't done much for the sixties, but China won't fully unify until after world war 2 ends it drags on until after Imperial Japan surrenders but by that point Northern China or Central China (depending on who in universe you ask to describe it) has a bicameral legislative assembly and has a lot of Manchu, and Hui representation particularly the Cadre (the upper House) is drawn almost exclusively from the military with Yan Xishan coming into the role of Prime Minister equivalent but I wouldn't really call him a puppet.

But thats quite a ways in the future.

ATP · Jul 10, 2021

Imperator Pax said:
White Wolf takes place chronologically, well let me put it this way... this timeline is plotted up and out through the 60s. I haven't done much for the sixties, but China won't fully unify until after world war 2 ends it drags on until after Imperial Japan surrenders but by that point Northern China or Central China (depending on who in universe you ask to describe it) has a bicameral legislative assembly and has a lot of Manchu, and Hui representation particularly the Cadre (the upper House) is drawn almost exclusively from the military with Yan Xishan coming into the role of Prime Minister equivalent but I wouldn't really call him a puppet.

But thats quite a ways in the future.

Good.United China was not always good for itself,and never for neighbours.
About war with Japan - in OTL Kuonmintang had german,american,italian and soviet advisors and stuff,and it not helped them.Better choose some smaller countries with good technology.
What about Holland,Sweden and Czech?
Holland - D.17 and D.21 fighters,C.10 dive bombers.enough till 1939.D.23 prototype fighter could work,too.
Czech - 100mm and 150mm howitzers mod 37.LGM mod 26. medium tank mod 39.light tank mod 38.AT gun 47mm,AA fun 83mm.
Sweden - medium tank Lago,armored cars,smaller warships.,37mmAT fun,40mm and 80mm AA guns.

After Czech fall - take engineers.
Poland was Japan ally,but after 1939 fall take engineers,too,and plans - P.37 medium bomber,P.49 next medium bomber,P.46 light bomber,P.50 fighter,P.48 fighter bomber/french engines/9tp ligh tank,4tp recon tank,20mm AA gun/for fighters and tanks,too/
100mm howitzers and 75mm fieldguns,AT rifle,new HMG,38mod semi-automatic rifle.47mm AT gun prototype
France - after 1940 fall,120 and 60mm mortars,155 guns,105mm howitzers,47mm AT guns,90mm AA guns,semi automatic rifle,SAU40 tank destroyer.
VG33,34 and 39 fighter prototypes,D.523,551 fighters,MB155,157 fighters.Dive bomber versions of Potez 63 and Breguet 593 light bombers.

That would be all,i think.If soviets take over Europe as in OTL,take all refugees.
PS earlier then 1937 - czech 100mm howitzers mods 14 and 30,french mortars 81mm mod 27,
And made in russia first assault rifle - awtamat fedorowa.

Imperator Pax · Jul 14, 2021

ATP said:
Good.United China was not always good for itself,and never for neighbours.
About war with Japan - in OTL Kuonmintang had german,american,italian and soviet advisors and stuff,and it not helped them.Better choose some smaller countries with good technology.
What about Holland,Sweden and Czech?
Holland - D.17 and D.21 fighters,C.10 dive bombers.enough till 1939.D.23 prototype fighter could work,too.
Czech - 100mm and 150mm howitzers mod 37.LGM mod 26. medium tank mod 39.light tank mod 38.AT gun 47mm,AA fun 83mm.
Sweden - medium tank Lago,armored cars,smaller warships.,37mmAT fun,40mm and 80mm AA guns.

After Czech fall - take engineers.
Poland was Japan ally,but after 1939 fall take engineers,too,and plans - P.37 medium bomber,P.49 next medium bomber,P.46 light bomber,P.50 fighter,P.48 fighter bomber/french engines/9tp ligh tank,4tp recon tank,20mm AA gun/for fighters and tanks,too/
100mm howitzers and 75mm fieldguns,AT rifle,new HMG,38mod semi-automatic rifle.47mm AT gun prototype
France - after 1940 fall,120 and 60mm mortars,155 guns,105mm howitzers,47mm AT guns,90mm AA guns,semi automatic rifle,SAU40 tank destroyer.
VG33,34 and 39 fighter prototypes,D.523,551 fighters,MB155,157 fighters.Dive bomber versions of Potez 63 and Breguet 593 light bombers.

That would be all,i think.If soviets take over Europe as in OTL,take all refugees.
PS earlier then 1937 - czech 100mm howitzers mods 14 and 30,french mortars 81mm mod 27,
And made in russia first assault rifle - awtamat fedorowa.

Of these, Holland is really the only one I hadn't considered. I don't know if you've glanced around the misc thread which covers not only some of the early drafts of the main story (the one that is actually derived from the CYOA, set after the end of the National Protection War in summer 1916) but the first side story (set at the end of the first world war), the teaser for the www2 era story as well as the 'spin off /crossover' whatever you want to call it side story with Destroyermen (1940s), as well as a large volume of world building content and background material

Federov's rifle for example is brought back from the first side story, and it also marks the first appearance of Czech legion, and the beginning of the Czech diaspora, which is important in the twenties during the interwar years

On the notion of airplanes in the interwar period Xian/north china/central china is buying production rights from Germany for a couple of aircraft not all of them are great, but they're also tied up with the UK and the US which continues in(the latter two) into the outbreak of the second sino japanese war. Xian's tanks are largely derived from French Renaults and later Vickers hybridizing those into what becomes the Model 1932 and 35 tanks [I have done a lot of world war 2 story content and world building for this story]

ATP · Jul 14, 2021

Imperator Pax said:
Of these, Holland is really the only one I hadn't considered. I don't know if you've glanced around the misc thread which covers not only some of the early drafts of the main story (the one that is actually derived from the CYOA, set after the end of the National Protection War in summer 1916) but the first side story (set at the end of the first world war), the teaser for the www2 era story as well as the 'spin off /crossover' whatever you want to call it side story with Destroyermen (1940s), as well as a large volume of world building content and background material

Federov's rifle for example is brought back from the first side story, and it also marks the first appearance of Czech legion, and the beginning of the Czech diaspora, which is important in the twenties during the interwar years

On the notion of airplanes in the interwar period Xian/north china/central china is buying production rights from Germany for a couple of aircraft not all of them are great, but they're also tied up with the UK and the US which continues in(the latter two) into the outbreak of the second sino japanese war. Xian's tanks are largely derived from French Renaults and later Vickers hybridizing those into what becomes the Model 1932 and 35 tanks [I have done a lot of world war 2 story content and world building for this story]

Where i could find those stories ? and i read some destryerman novels.

About planes - i accidentally found book about WW1 fighters/in polish/ ,so i knew that except Fokker who run to Holland Germany have also Pfalz manufactury with good Pfalz D.12 and new prototypes and the end of the war.
Another was manufacture LFG/Roland/ with another good plane,Roland D.6.Another factory - Siemens-Schuckert,with D.3 fighter.

All that factories was destroyed after WW1 - but your China could take one of them. with engineers to teach chineese how to made it and how made new ones.
In that case,you do not need buy planes from abroad.If Holland could take one german factory/Fokker/ ,then why not China ?

I am from Poland,and Poland from at least 1937 have secret alliance with Japan/anti-soviet/,so we would not help China from 1937.
But before that ? 100mm howitzers mod 26/only prototype was made/,75mm AA gun,47mm infrantry gun,P.11 and P.24 fighters,P.43 light bombers.And when Poland fell,you could take engineers and workers.Unfortunately,most of them would want to go and die for England.

Tanks - italian Fiat3000B would be good till 1939,against Japan till end of WW2.

Imperator Pax · Jul 14, 2021

ATP said:
Where i could find those stories ? and i read some destryerman novels.

About planes - i accidentally found book about WW1 fighters/in polish/ ,so i knew that except Fokker who run to Holland Germany have also Pfalz manufactury with good Pfalz D.12 and new prototypes and the end of the war.
Another was manufacture LFG/Roland/ with another good plane,Roland D.6.Another factory - Siemens-Schuckert,with D.3 fighter.

All that factories was destroyed after WW1 - but your China could take one of them. with engineers to teach chineese how to made it and how made new ones.
In that case,you do not need buy planes from abroad.If Holland could take one german factory/Fokker/ ,then why not China ?

I am from Poland,and Poland from at least 1937 have secret alliance with Japan/anti-soviet/,so we would not help China from 1937.
But before that ? 100mm howitzers mod 26/only prototype was made/,75mm AA gun,47mm infrantry gun,P.11 and P.24 fighters,P.43 light bombers.And when Poland fell,you could take engineers and workers.Unfortunately,most of them would want to go and die for England.

Tanks - italian Fiat3000B would be good till 1939,against Japan till end of WW2.

My Miscellaneous thread: https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/imperator-paxs-miscellaneous-stuff.10769/ its the link in my signature 'Imperator Pax's Miscellaneous Stuff'

For this 'timeline' they start with 'https://forum.questionablequesting....iscellaneous-stuff.10769/page-16#post-3379228' this post under the heading Autumn of Empires in snippet form. This is the original version, and after I finish White Wolf Rebellion I'll be posting the new versions here in this thread, and they'll be longer, new material and so forth
The short form version of Side Story 1 is here here https://forum.questionablequesting....iscellaneous-stuff.10769/page-16#post-3428387 its threadmarked under extras and its only three parts

The Destroyermen Side Story draft 1 starts here: https://forum.questionablequesting....iscellaneous-stuff.10769/page-19#post-3862428

AoE's behind the scenes world building content can be considered somewhat spoilery to things down the road its a mix its here in the extra tab: https://forum.questionablequesting....iscellaneous-stuff.10769/page-18#post-3704939

Most of this content will undergo some degree of revision as I flesh out, not just the White Wolf period of the timeline but also the 'Great war' era and inter war eras, especially as its the latter where the transition from 'adventurers' to 'nation state building' really starts to come together.

ATP · Jul 16, 2021

Imperator Pax said:
My Miscellaneous thread: https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/imperator-paxs-miscellaneous-stuff.10769/ its the link in my signature 'Imperator Pax's Miscellaneous Stuff'

For this 'timeline' they start with 'https://forum.questionablequesting....iscellaneous-stuff.10769/page-16#post-3379228' this post under the heading Autumn of Empires in snippet form. This is the original version, and after I finish White Wolf Rebellion I'll be posting the new versions here in this thread, and they'll be longer, new material and so forth
The short form version of Side Story 1 is here here https://forum.questionablequesting....iscellaneous-stuff.10769/page-16#post-3428387 its threadmarked under extras and its only three parts

The Destroyermen Side Story draft 1 starts here: https://forum.questionablequesting....iscellaneous-stuff.10769/page-19#post-3862428

AoE's behind the scenes world building content can be considered somewhat spoilery to things down the road its a mix its here in the extra tab: https://forum.questionablequesting....iscellaneous-stuff.10769/page-18#post-3704939

Most of this content will undergo some degree of revision as I flesh out, not just the White Wolf period of the timeline but also the 'Great war' era and inter war eras, especially as its the latter where the transition from 'adventurers' to 'nation state building' really starts to come together.

Thanks.
You rescued tsar,and your SI do not formed harem with his cute daughters? it is QQ,you knew!

Jokes aside - in OTL soviets get almost all gold,100t send to germans,and rest sold to USA till 1922.For weapons,machines and luxury food for party officials.5millions ordinary people died from hunger,but they do not cared.
Later they robbed churches and sold gold to USA,too.When it ended,Stalin was selling grain when millions died every year.

In other worlds,your SI just denied Wall Street banksters tsar gold.They would be no happy with him,especially after they pay Trocky so he could hire thugs and win revolution.

Part of Syberia in Japan puppet hand? good.In OTL soviet made in Magadan series of Gulags which was practicallu death camps - i read memories of polish citizen which go there with 11 friends.After one year he and 2 others survived,and every day somebody died near him.All happy,that it is end.

Back to topic - russian produced french designed 122mm howitzers,76mm and 107mm guns.Maybe your SI could get plans for them?

All in all - good stories.In Destroyermen you could add more states made by people who come before 1942 - of course,rather on islands.England maybe? Saxons with steam ironclad would be funny.
Maybe add King Arthur fighting them in another Ironclad ?

!632 - it would be fun,if Poland,Russia,Turkey,Persia and Spain all get their own city from 2000.

Imperator Pax · Jul 17, 2021

ATP said:
Thanks.
You rescued tsar,and your SI do not formed harem with his cute daughters? it is QQ,you knew!

Jokes aside - in OTL soviets get almost all gold,100t send to germans,and rest sold to USA till 1922.For weapons,machines and luxury food for party officials.5millions ordinary people died from hunger,but they do not cared.
Later they robbed churches and sold gold to USA,too.When it ended,Stalin was selling grain when millions died every year.

In other worlds,your SI just denied Wall Street banksters tsar gold.They would be no happy with him,especially after they pay Trocky so he could hire thugs and win revolution.

Part of Syberia in Japan puppet hand? good.In OTL soviet made in Magadan series of Gulags which was practicallu death camps - i read memories of polish citizen which go there with 11 friends.After one year he and 2 others survived,and every day somebody died near him.All happy,that it is end.

Back to topic - russian produced french designed 122mm howitzers,76mm and 107mm guns.Maybe your SI could get plans for them?

All in all - good stories.In Destroyermen you could add more states made by people who come before 1942 - of course,rather on islands.England maybe? Saxons with steam ironclad would be funny.
Maybe add King Arthur fighting them in another Ironclad ?

!632 - it would be fun,if Poland,Russia,Turkey,Persia and Spain all get their own city from 2000.

Some of the Tsar's gold was also sent to Kemal's Ankara government as well n the early twenties as well. As for the Romanovs, in the original, or very early draft of this (which featured more meta Cyoa inclusion being more of an SI) there wwere plans to add a Russian aristocrat to the harem, but I did more or less decide to scrap that.

However it should be pointed out that Maria's survival is part of the reason Lord Mountbatten is so decidedly friendly with 'Northern China' as opposed to Chiang Kai-Shek's KMT.

As for French designed artillery the French Schneider 1917, and that comes via way of Finland... (because League of Nations Arms embargo prohibits buying directly from France in early interwar years), the 122 is a good gun, but as for the 76 they're already building the a variant on the 7.7 Field kannone Neuer Arte by 1915 (bought pre War) as they're mobile field gun. Once Southern Russian stabilizes (the sort of Kazakhstan in this timeline) stabilizes they'll be buying up (C17s, and three inch artillery under British support (after Churchill rejoins the British government in the mid twenties) and production will more or less be entirely domestic until the end of the LoN Arms embargo (which actually applied to some industrial machinery as well) this is why most of the imported gear during this period is Czech, Swedish, Swiss because those countries weren't party to the League Of Nations embargo on selling to China (and yes there was smuggling in from France, the US, Britain and so one to get around the embargo, but that is something I will expand upon further when we get to the Inter war years in the new version)

For Destroyermen I have some ideas to that effect. the canonical Czech legion of Destroyermen play a larger role, I have plans for a napoleonic era faction (i won't say who until I put up), It won't be Saxons, but there will be a Dreadnought type ship showing up with the crew speaking Old english in the story later on.

1632 Is something I haven't done much with, I 've been meaning to go back to it again, crack open the RPG book for it, and do some stuff (Particularly since the more recent books have pivoting towards China, Japan and India in their far flung adventures) If I threw Turkey Istanbul, or Ankara or Tehran or Karaj would be a politically interesting its not something I've sat down and seriously charted.

Imperator Pax · Jul 17, 2021

November 1913

The cadre members commanding units didn't, couldn't represent the entirety of the Cadre. Sheridan, as a signals officer during his time in the Federal Army, might have been better slotted into the role of regiment Executive... if of course the companies were being used as line units. They weren't though, and thus his comand of C Company holding rear guard made sense for other reason. Powell, Dawes, Phillips and Griswold obviously were all heading sections of the artillery command which nominally was, doubly even, for the supply so each of them had to supporting committee members along with for various tasks.

They were going to need to address artillery specialization though, and it wasn't the only thing. The labor corp could only do so much, and how much was a point of contention. "The Chinese Legislature has recessed." Griswold remarked glancing at him as if it meant anything in itself.

"What do you mean?"

"The new guy is in Peking."

That was the job of the US ambassador after all. "Yeah I don't imagine Yuan Shikai has much pleasant to say about the legislature at the moment." That wasn't the only thing going on either, and Allen reached for the newspaper and grimaced. "What do we know about this?"

"Its worse than it sounds." Griswold replied, and Allen felt his eyebrow raise, "Yeah, worse, Bai's got, and we're hoping that they're partially at least troops that rebelled back in July, but probably five thousand troops waltzing through Guangzhou. I mean they're stuck behind Beiyang lines, but this," He jerked his head back to the newspaper, "its obvious he's trying to stir shit."

"Shinozaki is still in town."

"I get the feeling that Hayashi is helping Sun, and maybe even Bai directly, and Yamagata probably be as happy as peach if we'd plug Bai Lang." He said by way of answer

Allen unfolded the paper. The southern newspaper had been delivered by courier from a panicking Percival Graves in Tietsin. It had been printed in Canton and the purported letter from Bai Lang, and Allen had no reason to doubt its authenticity, proclaimed the bandit general's support for Sun Yat-sen, his committed opposition to Yuan Shikai, and the size of his army in the field... and a lot of other revolutionary firebrand bits that they had come to suspect, "I suspect that at least is what Percy hopes we will do." Japan's internal disputes was a problem. "This isn't the only thing he sent." He tossed the paper back down, and reached for the letter and handed it over.

Griswold grimaced, "Do you think he's talking to Shellman or they just like minded. He's right Xian is tucked away from the fighting. Its a big city should be safe enough. Trying to tell the missionaries that its safer there might make it easier."

He hoped it wasn't one of the doctors. It certainly wasn't impossible, but he didn't like the idea that Peter or Paul had decided to exagerate their interest in the city's immediate future to Graves as a pressure. Shellman or Stockwell weren't the only possibilities, and they couldn't just discount Graves had come up with it on his own. Griswold flipped the page and swore.

"Yeah. That was about my reaction." He commented remembering the morning's coffee.

"So it is Hayashi then, that son of a bitch." Griswold hissed. Fingers tightened to crinkle the thick vellum letter's corner, "Why did you not shoot that bastard in Korea?"

"Eugene talked me out of it."

"How the fu-," He stopped, and straightened back up, breathing noisily. "Bai's got a shipment of Arisakas well that's just great."

They were lucky that they knew that much. That John Jordan hadn't been able to stop it was understandable. Stopping the Japanese arms would have been a bridge too far for the minister. It would have risked, even worse, putting Yamagata in a position where he might have to defend Hayashi on top of it, or one of Hayashi's patsies. John Jordan wasn't about to start a diplomatic incident with Japan, which rather undercut his wish to prevent arms and ammunition from passing into the hands of revolutionaries. "My father reckons that he has about a brigades worth, possibly three thousand of them." Reportedly of the Type 30.

"Shit. We ought to tell Yuan's boys. Let them throw a couple divisions at the problem." Griswold shrugged, "I know we can't. Hayashi is the god damn ambassador, probably at the center of this spider web, and he's got a say in the Jap side of the loans I'm sure. God damn." He stopped cursing long enough to fix himself a drink and sit down looking tersely at the newspaper and then the pages of the letter and then drink in front of him. "So you going to see the new guy?"

"Apparently I don't have a choice." Forrest the elder considered it necessary, especially given the secretary of state and president's position on the missionaries. That wasn't only issue of interest to America's presence, or of the British. Though unmentioned by Graves, Bai Lang or troops loyal to him had hit some of the tobacco farms the past week doing 'significant' financial damage to those 'institutions' or so he had been told. Those complaints were going to inevitably be forwarded onto the government in Peking. That was just how things were. "I'm not sure how long I'll be gone, but with him having troops that far south, its not impossible this paper is kindling for another fire down that way."

"There's another problem. Its probably just plain corruption, but those guns he gets from the states, and Canada..." Griswold left the sentence hanging...

Allen nodded, "Yeah, I've had the same thought, but someone in government over there has probably been bought. Someone is turning an eye to guns coming over. If Lea was still alive I might think it could be otherwise, but for the states, there is Mexico to consider as well." There was no shortage of demand for guns south of the Rio Grande either, and yet Bai Lang had been pulling guns in from Canada and the States for going on two years now, "John Jordan may or may not be able to do anything to stop it."

Griswold shrugged. "Those 07s will help, it will buy us time. George," Waite, who officially had command C Company of the 1st battalion, "have anything to say?"

"I haven't told him yet."

Sam blinked, "Right he went with the docs down to Xian. Sorry slipped my mind everyone coming and going." It would have possibly been the better choice to have George remain, to train for artillery spotting and so on. "I think the stock design will work, I'll admit I'm borrowing from, well a little bit of everyone, but we can make the stock out of a couple pieces of joined wood, and use metal tangs to protect the toe. It'll be faster. The wood joinery will speed it up and the stocks can be done. The other fixtures are matter of machining, the sights are going to be an issue. We aren't shooting nearly regular at four hundred yards, meters." He corrected. "I'd like fine adjustment but for now."

"For now we just need rifles." Allen agreed. "How many?"

"I might be able to get enough done for the line to produce six hundred rifles by January first. We'll still have to proof them. Even with the heat treatment, and JP's pyrometer working for the bolt I want to make sure they work."

"Has there been a problem with the steel?"

"No, not at all, but every Mauser we've made has been with a lot more care. It would have been different if we had built the line and been churning them out for the Qing, but we never got that far I want to be sure that we've got the process down." The batch Griswold was talking about would be somewhat unique. The features of the mauser rifles would change in subsequent batches and it wouldn't be until years later that they'd standardize everyone. The myriad of different guns would end up in arsenals and storage or surplused out, but they were taking a step, a much needed step towards mass production. It would still be almost two years later that the eight millimeter would finally succeed the other myriad of rifles and calibers as their standard infantry rifle... and by that point Europe would be engulfed in the largest war in human history to date.

There would be other problems by then.
--
It was starting to get cooler, but November here was mild, clear. No rain, and he doubted they'd see snow until Christmas even then. He didn't really consider cold, and the lack rain at least made drill easier on the men.

John Allen pushed the jade square around his desk. The little gold foot at one end that some had added to repair where it had chipped who knew when, caught on the leather edge, and he frowned. He picked the square up, and placed it back in the corner.

The train would take him in the morning up along the way to Peking. He'd been through files on Bai Lang Shinnozaki had shared, and he was sure the were complete, but there was no evidence of what he wanted to find in them most. He wanted something, some indicator that Bai Lang was working with even then with Hayashi. That he'd been recruited, but there wasn't anything. There were some indications that Bai Lang had some ties to some Manchus, and some of those fellows had royalist sentiments... but nothing that linked Bai Lang to Hayashi.

Any connection with Hayashi was probably with Sun. Might the French have telegraph intercepts? The Germans? Surely if the Brits had John Jordan would have said something to someone and word would have gotten around. No, he chided himself, Hayashi wasn't that damned sloppy. Those were the kind of mistakes he might have made in Joseon, in 1904. The kind of mistakes he'd have made a decade ago.

The southern doctor was in Japan now. Huang Xing had joined him as had much of his inner circle.

"There is a solution to this." Jun remarked easing down into the chair, "you simply need to bait the trap for the mongrel to come."

"He won't come here." Bai Lang wasn't that fucking stupid.

"This quaint city with its forests are nice, but it has never been the capital of a kingdom, never mind of all China."

He wasn't going to attack Peking that would be suicide even with his whole troop. Nanking was was almost as suicidal. "Xian." He muttered by process of elimination. Anyang and Kaifeng were too chancy. Too easily moved on by the Beiyang especially right now. The others too extreme in distance... there was no way he'd be able to move on them during the winter.

She looked at him, "You already made the basics of attacking the wolf in his lair. The troops have been blooded. What else needs to be done?"

She said that but there was actually quite a lot that needed to be done. On the other hand it wasn't like Bai Lang could do an overland march through winter on horseback from the eastern coast.
--
Commentary: It will get brought up later but Arisakas had already been entering China since the late Qing, Yuan Shikai had purchased a 'significant' quantity of 'Manchu Arisakas' and it seems that Zhang Tso Lin while fighting for the Japanese against the Russians also had Japanese arms support

ATP · Jul 17, 2021

Imperator Pax said:
Some of the Tsar's gold was also sent to Kemal's Ankara government as well n the early twenties as well. As for the Romanovs, in the original, or very early draft of this (which featured more meta Cyoa inclusion being more of an SI) there wwere plans to add a Russian aristocrat to the harem, but I did more or less decide to scrap that.

However it should be pointed out that Maria's survival is part of the reason Lord Mountbatten is so decidedly friendly with 'Northern China' as opposed to Chiang Kai-Shek's KMT.

As for French designed artillery the French Schneider 1917, and that comes via way of Finland... (because League of Nations Arms embargo prohibits buying directly from France in early interwar years), the 122 is a good gun, but as for the 76 they're already building the a variant on the 7.7 Field kannone Neuer Arte by 1915 (bought pre War) as they're mobile field gun. Once Southern Russian stabilizes (the sort of Kazakhstan in this timeline) stabilizes they'll be buying up (C17s, and three inch artillery under British support (after Churchill rejoins the British government in the mid twenties) and production will more or less be entirely domestic until the end of the LoN Arms embargo (which actually applied to some industrial machinery as well) this is why most of the imported gear during this period is Czech, Swedish, Swiss because those countries weren't party to the League Of Nations embargo on selling to China (and yes there was smuggling in from France, the US, Britain and so one to get around the embargo, but that is something I will expand upon further when we get to the Inter war years in the new version)

For Destroyermen I have some ideas to that effect. the canonical Czech legion of Destroyermen play a larger role, I have plans for a napoleonic era faction (i won't say who until I put up), It won't be Saxons, but there will be a Dreadnought type ship showing up with the crew speaking Old english in the story later on.

1632 Is something I haven't done much with, I 've been meaning to go back to it again, crack open the RPG book for it, and do some stuff (Particularly since the more recent books have pivoting towards China, Japan and India in their far flung adventures) If I threw Turkey Istanbul, or Ankara or Tehran or Karaj would be a politically interesting its not something I've sat down and seriously charted.

So,you are planning southern Russia n Khazastan? good,in OTL Stalin genocided 30% of population there.Weaker soviets would be unable to help Hitler start WW2,and if they start making kolchoz people could destroy it from within.

Destroyermen - problem with it are big lizards and Grik-like lizard cyvilizations.I doubt,that any people with technology from Napoleon time would survive on mainland,unless it is without thinking lizards/like in Destroyermen South Africa/

For that reason,i do not think that any human cyvilisation in Asia or Europa is possible,unless they come after 1850 or do not meet cyvilized lizards.Maybe in mountains only? Napoleonic Switzerland would be fun.

1632 - no big cities,small town like in canon.I do not think,that small polish or russian town without army could help much on its own,but their knowledge is another case.Problem is,how Polish King,tsar ,Ottomans or other rulers would use that knowledge.
Polish lings of this era was capable,but polish gentry keep their powers in line,and do not liked idea of no-gentry coruling country with them.In tsar and Ottomans it was easily - everybody was tsar/sultan slave,so they could do whatever they liked.

Imperator Pax · Jul 17, 2021

ATP said:
So,you are planning southern Russia n Khazastan? good,in OTL Stalin genocided 30% of population there.Weaker soviets would be unable to help Hitler start WW2,and if they start making kolchoz people could destroy it from within.

Destroyermen - problem with it are big lizards and Grik-like lizard cyvilizations.I doubt,that any people with technology from Napoleon time would survive on mainland,unless it is without thinking lizards/like in Destroyermen South Africa/

For that reason,i do not think that any human cyvilisation in Asia or Europa is possible,unless they come after 1850 or do not meet cyvilized lizards.Maybe in mountains only? Napoleonic Switzerland would be fun.

1632 - no big cities,small town like in canon.I do not think,that small polish or russian town without army could help much on its own,but their knowledge is another case.Problem is,how Polish King,tsar ,Ottomans or other rulers would use that knowledge.
Polish lings of this era was capable,but polish gentry keep their powers in line,and do not liked idea of no-gentry coruling country with them.In tsar and Ottomans it was easily - everybody was tsar/sultan slave,so they could do whatever they liked.

The Soviet Polish War in 1920 still occurred while the Whites were still in the field, and was basically Stalin and friends deciding on it with the red cavalry with little to no consideration paid to what Trotsky as War Commissar thought [actually this is kind of a trend in the Russian Civil War where a number of people decided to haying off whereever they felt] So I kind of feel that Stalin once he was in power was going to go after Poland, as mentioned in the snippets Poland is a lot more economically valuable than the Russian Far East c. 1920, without those regions to spend money Stalin will probably continue to build up in the Urals yes, but he had arguably more reason to ally with Hitler. [Stalin historically repeatedly ignored signs of Nazi aggression because, it logically didn't make sense for the Nazis to attack from his perspective as Stalin had been trying to get into the Axis (contributed towards his great distrust of GB and Churchhill in particular)]

As for destroyermen, the Grik IIRC only have a limitted foothold in the Med basin in Europe, when I say Napoleonic think further north (Obviously its not France we already have a French faction in canon even if they're the bad guys)

ATP · Jul 17, 2021

Imperator Pax said:
The Soviet Polish War in 1920 still occurred while the Whites were still in the field, and was basically Stalin and friends deciding on it with the red cavalry with little to no consideration paid to what Trotsky as War Commissar thought [actually this is kind of a trend in the Russian Civil War where a number of people decided to haying off whereever they felt] So I kind of feel that Stalin once he was in power was going to go after Poland, as mentioned in the snippets Poland is a lot more economically valuable than the Russian Far East c. 1920, without those regions to spend money Stalin will probably continue to build up in the Urals yes, but he had arguably more reason to ally with Hitler. [Stalin historically repeatedly ignored signs of Nazi aggression because, it logically didn't make sense for the Nazis to attack from his perspective as Stalin had been trying to get into the Axis (contributed towards his great distrust of GB and Churchhill in particular)]

As for destroyermen, the Grik IIRC only have a limitted foothold in the Med basin in Europe, when I say Napoleonic think further north (Obviously its not France we already have a French faction in canon even if they're the bad guys)

Considering that in OTL soviets gathered their armies on border,and not on fortyfications but massed to attack,i think that Hitler simply was quicker and backsatabbed his ally first.And Poland was rather poor counrty - attacking it have little sense,but if it let later tale entire Europe,it have sense.Which,if Stalin attacked first,would be aesy.

Destroyermen Further North? they ,considering which countries in those times have big armies ,it could be Prussia,Saxony,Poland,Russia or Sweden.Pick whatever suiy you.

ATP · Jul 19, 2021

Another useful facts - you could buy not only fighters from Germany after their fall,like Holland/and mass produce them/ but also light tank LK2 which in OTL was produced in Sweden/Fokker/.Later you could buy from them medium tank Strvm/42 in 1942,and get modern medium tank without making deals with any bigger country.
Or Char 1G medium tank prototype after fall of France.
You could buy all you could from fallen countries with good stuff like Czech,Poland and France.

Destroyermen - North and napoleonic - why not remnants of Napoleon Grand Armee mixed with following russians and local iron age finnish tribes ? French army had also poles,germans,italian and austrians.
Interesting,what would be result of such mix ?
Or,even better - all of them,but mixed with local Neardental people which get iron weapons from small number of previous contact? one smith would be enough,and it would not change population much,even if he have few wives.

ATP · Jul 19, 2021

Destroyermen - it would be hard to explain why they remained on napoleonic technology level.So,maybe small group get,meet stone age people,and must start from the beginning.
If those stone age people was Neandertals and their population reemain mostly pure/thanks to small number of newcomers/ ,it would be fun to meet army of Neandertals in napoleon-style uniforms.

Imperator Pax · Jul 24, 2021

17th November 1913

Yuan Shikai could put away drink like few people Allen knew. The President of the Republic had done a lot of grousing about everything as he drummed away at rye and high price French champagne, and British Gins.

On paper of course the Cadre was a hundred men. Some were veterans of the legation guards, the fifteenth, Philippines, the war with Spain, or the Boxers or so forth, but not everyone had seen adventure even if most had come from the colors. In truth the hundred were a collection of everything. Doctors likes Stockwell were few admittedly, but there were engineers and machinists of every stripe. It had never been intended as a military command but there had been a need for men with knowledge of modern fighting, and the tools of that trade... because of course they'd intended to sell guns to the Qing.

He didn't need Paul here to comment on how much Yuan liked having other military men around, he knew that well enough. Reinsch though had just gotten done with his first public meeting, and then probably been invited back to the smoking for drinks and less stiff conversation. "You have known the president for several years now?"

It wasn't really a question. "In 1903 the only language we could both speak was German." He remarked. Yuan's English remained a weak point that the now president of China wasn't happy about, and the president of the republic had never been a good student in terms of academics. He probably had used a translator to sit down with Reinsch to avoid making a mistake with the new guy. Yuan could speak and read Korean, but Allen hadn't been able to speak the Hermit Kingdom's tongue back then. Chinese had seemed more important to learn. "That worked fine back then."

"He was a great insight to you on matters in Korea."

"Certainly." He replied. Truthfully he wanted that Williams would stop shuffling off in the corner and stay where he could see him, the Legation Secretary had to know it was distracting.

"And the Guomindang?"

Behind the new Ambassador the Elder Forrest sent his son a pointed look. "Sun's party is, well more accurately is a collection of a few smaller ones. Within which you've got different wings. Bai Lang for example," Another hard look, but he ignored it, "isn't in the same political wing as Song Jiaoren was, its part of the reason why its such a big party to start with."

"The big tent theory of political organization. They had a majority in the parliament." The mid westerner remarked, but withholding a 'as you well know'. It wasn't a point Allen was willing to dispute. "If elections were held, do you think they'd win another election."

... "That depends I'd suppose if he lets the south vote or not." He replied. "If he does yes, the Guomindang will just re label itself something else and will win a lot of the electorate down there." The preceding constituents to the Guomindang had done that before after all, "Enough for the majority in the lower house, most probably."

"You don't think he'll let the southern half of the count vote?" and before he could answer the Ambassador pushed forward, "Or that he'll simply disbar a number of men from being permitted to vote, perhaps?"

"Most likely the former. Yuan is more likely to just say we're not ready for elections and keep pushing it off. I wouldn't expect any next year at least. 1916? Maybe. Maybe he'd try and wait until 1918."

"That would be a very long time to wait. He'd be ruling more like a king than a president if that were the case. He wouldn't have a leg to stand on in terms of the constitution, but supposing that Yuan drafts a new constitution, would he hold elections then, after the lessons from 1913's results?"

It was a landmine. It was a word trap, because there was no good answer to that question. "Elections in the general sense, yes. Yunnan? Maybe not. Canton I doubt it. The thing is, if he holds elections there are plenty of voters who will vote for one block of Sun's party here in Peking. So even if he doesn't let the south of the country vote he'll still end up with Sun's supporters in the parliament."

"That sounds like an argument to not hold elections at all." Reinsch remarked, disapproving "Again I would have to tell the president it is a veritable military dictatorship. I've been asked, by both the Legation personnel as well as by our British Allies to hold off on such a statement, but that is what it looks to me Mr. Forrest. How will Yuan Shikai as president keep the country together without elections?"

"Delegation is how I suspect he means to go about it."

"He's given you some indication then?"

"I think he means to appoint governors of the provinces of men he trusts, but who will be accepted ideally by those provinces."

"So like the Empire of old." Reinsch nodded if not necessarily happy at the notion, "President Wilson doesn't wish to meddle in what he perceives as internal Chinese matters, but he is also very concerned about the safety of Christian missionaries in the country and dangers to them in the form of brigands."

--
The meeting with John Jordan had been a bit smoother in Allen's opinion, especially since it was warranting this one. He knew the scores, and had a much better feel of the terrain around them than with the guy still finding his feet. That didn't mean Paul Renisch was an idiot, and as his daddy had put it you let that school teacher sucker you into that pitfall, but Jordan had a better feel for things in China, and that meeting had been easier on everyone. "I'm glad to hear that you've considered my suggestions John Allen." Percival beamed, and the British ambassador nodded.

He was tempted to stick a needle in the balloon of the man's elation, but decided not to. "The rail makes it a lot more practical," He responded instead.

"Quite right," Percy agreed, "Insuring that the missionaries can withdraw to those old walls will give them a sturdy respite in the storm, and if then they need to be carried home, well the railway will make it a civilized trip."

"Percy is correct." John Jordan concurred, "It is a very good, are there perhaps other means his majesty's government can perhaps assist? I understand that there is some concern regarding Bai Lang's recent windfall of arms." Something that Yuan Shikai had bitterly complained of as well. The situation down south making it near impossible to send people... or if he could it might end up being Zhang Xun to get him out of potentially stirring more trouble down south where Hayashi could raise cain over it.

He thought about the steel works, and the process of mechanical arms hammering steel till it was homogenous... they had winter. "I was going to speak to Percy on the matter of supply, but if I could borrow a couple of fellows I know on Shanghai's municipal police force it might prevent some ruffled feathers."

"Of course, that's a wonderful idea, you can provide the particulars to Percy and I will see to the men will have their schedules cleared forthwith." John Jordan replied, probably somewhat relieved that he wasn't asking for guns directly. The ambassador left to another appointment.

"I'm surprised you didn't bring up the matter of mounting machine guns on aeroplanes, old boy." Percy remarked sipping his brandy. "Though that is what you meant by matters of supply I take it?"

"Unfortunately yes." Vickers owned the Maxim Gun but they had made their own improvements. "I have three batteries of three inch guns," Plus those monsters, Percy reminded him, or that Vickers could provide comparable armaments, "and those," He said ignoring the second half, "I would like Vickers guns in a Mauser caliber. Seven, or Seven point nine two either will work."

"Should be no trouble, your Ordinance department has secured the design in their 3006." Percy responded, "Spain is behind on paying for their order," Graves rolled his eyes as if that were no great surprise, "I can move around some of those guns have a couple here in a month or two, sometime early in the new year. Anything else I can do?"

"Ask Sig if they still have those Mexican Mondragon rifles. IF they have them, I'm interested in buying out Mexico's order."

"Of course, I'll try and have them on the same ship. If you don't terribly mind my asking, John Allen, seven will be easier to do, which of course I wholly understand." Percy wagged, "Who do you mean to sort these with?"

"Cole has Abel Company of Second Battalion. I mean to increase the machine gun firepower he has available if we can do that."

"A fire brigade."

"That's the general idea," He agreed not intending to elaborate.

"I'll do what I can, but some of those fellows Cole keeps around. Some of the men he brought over from South Africa have connections that would be best not advertised... and he ties to some of the Irish ruffians. I know you don't lean that way, but if someone wanted to raise a fuss."

"Cole's volunteers will cause you no trouble Percy." He hoped that that would be true, as Cole's miners had been one thing in 1910, but the Irish he doubted might actually stick around long enough to gainfully retire. "With Bai Lang's number I need them with rifles more than I do," He stopped and stood up as heard the clunk of the wood floor, and the glass shatter down stairs. They were in a fairly nice part of town, and Peking was fairly safe all things considered, but the fact the Indian had gotten up as well from where he'd been tucked in the corner suggested to Allen that he was right to get up. "Stay here Percy." He stuck his head out and grabbed Shang pulling the younger man into the room. "Check out the window," He ordered.

Allen moved back out the door to the hall, and hoped that they didn't need to put the Remingtons together... but at least they had them if it came to that. He caught the grays of Beiyang uniforms and grumbled to himself they had the manners to take their caps off. Cao Kun's figure was pretty obvious though at one end, and he lit up, and Allen waved moving over. It didn't change the fact he didn't know which brigade the second set of fellas were from, which wasn't to say much. He didn't know every Beiyang general in North China. It wasn't one Qirui's people all of them were out east chasing Bai.

Cao Kun straightened, "Ah John, this is Feng Yuhsiang. He has been given a command to assist Duan Qirui in hunting down that pesky bandit." They made the usual circle of handshakes introductions and things seemed to forget the spilled german beer on the floor of the hotel's restaurant and Allen returned upstairs.

"I'm surprised I didn't hear any shooting."

He'd counted a number of Mausers, and Brownings among the officers but no rifles. All of them were gentlemen it looked like. "I think something untoward got said, and I just happened to make an appearance to put the brakes to the train before it went over. Cao Kun is down there with a Feng Yuhsiang?"

"I don't know him sorry."

ATP · Jul 24, 2021

He need buy fast,Vickers would not send him anything after WW1 start.And Mondragon rifles - good idea,semi-automatic rifle mean a lot.Problem is,they need to be very clean to work.Not easy goal in china mud.
Pity,that he do not knew about Awtamat Fedorowa - first prototype was made in 1912,if i remember correctly.

Imperator Pax · Jul 24, 2021

ATP said:
Destroyermen - it would be hard to explain why they remained on napoleonic technology level.So,maybe small group get,meet stone age people,and must start from the beginning.
If those stone age people was Neandertals and their population reemain mostly pure/thanks to small number of newcomers/ ,it would be fun to meet army of Neandertals in napoleon-style uniforms.

Remaining at a napoleonic level of technology is relatively easy to explain, ductile metal working as an art has been around for a long time, brass is very easy to work with, so looking backwards from where we are now metallic cartridges looks for example pretty obvious. The minie ball was simiarlly a kind of in hindsight 'duh' development (and was actually developed in parallel we just say Minie ball because of the fame associated with it) Berdan and Boxer primer were American, and English developments respectively (the great cold war joke being the Soviets decided to keep with the Union's primer, while the United States chose england's primer and actually have a greater degree of chemistry requirement. Paper cartridges were widely common in the Napoleonic and remained alongside metallic cartridge firing rifles into the early 1900s. The great reason to stick at a napoelonic tech level is the chemistry infrastructure necessary though to produce primers as well as smokeless gunpowder. [we will get to that in a minute]

ATP said:
He need buy fast,Vickers would not send him anything after WW1 start.And Mondragon rifles - good idea,semi-automatic rifle mean a lot.Problem is,they need to be very clean to work.Not easy goal in china mud.
Pity,that he do not knew about Awtamat Fedorowa - first prototype was made in 1912,if i remember correctly.

Federov's rifle does exist, but its still in his proprietary caliber, and its only by about this point that the Russian literature from the small arms commission for the Imperial Army should be starting to circulate, which is why it won't be mentioned here until after the new year.

Which brings us back to the gunpowder thing, the Cedar-Forrest Arsenal currently up and running produces IMR style US powders (they became available due to the US government making them available during Theodore Roosevelt's trust busting), the plant manufactures along US lines and this is part of the reason why the cadre 8mm Mauser load is a heavier 200gr bullet because most US rifle and powder development was done by people who were looking at national match evaluation trials, so this is very clean burning, it also uses a lot of synthetic manufacturing for nitrogen (Germany has also adopted this, Britain notably didn't, Cordite is very messy stuff. Mexican ammo was also pretty nasty stuff in quality, which was the Mondragon's big failing, it had to be kept clean). Thats specifically a cultural, and economic development, those specifics are born out of a reason, a need that isn't universal.

and it won't ever be a general issue service rifle. It and most 7mm Mauser loading equipment is getting segregated off, which is one of the things Percy is little nervous about because regarding who is getting them specifically, which will be touched on itself later on.

As for Vickers yeah, and that will be true, because at the time in 1913 everyone was feeling 'oh we just dodged another war', which meant Vickers in particular was looking to offload merchandise (particularly because Spain had financial problems and had yet to pay for its order of machine guns) no one expected WW1 to be a year in the future. (Vickers-Siemens scandal in Japan is also right around the corner).

Really once ww1 stars all of a sudden the shoe is on the opposite foot, because 1914 suddenly Russia as well as the British Empire and France are looking for any and all extra production capacity they can buy up for anything arms related including new production single shot breach loading rifles, which is a pretty nice capital influx for a factory that has the capacity and can ship them up through Harbin and then to the trans siberian or ship precursor materials to Australia or New Zealand who didn't really have (and hadn't really been encouraged) a developed arms industry for production of powder, ammunition as a whole, or rifles

ATP · Jul 28, 2021

I read,that british army buy only small number of HMG,becouse....nobody knew why.I once read that they thought that HMG should be used only against savages,not another white man.But,even for british,it is too stupid.

Now,i get a book about soviet artillery,and it is also about with what they started - so,i knew what tsar had:
1.Schneider 76mm for calvary and infrantry variant.-in 1913 russians consideret it as obsolate.
2.Schneider 76mm mountain gun/1909/.from 1916 they start delivered variant for normal infrantry/close support/
3.122 mm Krupp howitzer/1909/
4.122mm Schneider howitzer/1910/ do not ask me,why they produced both.
5.107mm Schneider heavy gun/1910/
6.152mm Schneider howitzer/1910/
7.In 1914 they take 76mm gun and modified it to be AA.but it was only half-measure and never really mass produced
8.mortars - they copied french and made their own 47mm/400m range/ and 89mm,but all during WW1.
9.in 1916 they start producing 37mm trench guns - both russian and american/McLean-automatic gun/
MClEAN WAS READY IN 1909!. So,you could buy it from USA in 1913 - especially,that nobody wanted it - you get it cheap!.
And it would be wery good AT guns against light tanks.

All that guns/or most of them/ you could capture when Russia fall.Take engineers running from soviet paradise,too.

You need trucks - but you should buy them from USA.Till 1917 it should be possible.Hold tractors for heavy artillery,too.

P.S i still would like to see Neandrtals in napoleon -style uniforms !
But even if it would not be possible - soviets in OTL modified 122mm and 152mm howitzers before WW2,so your SI could do the same.
76mm gun was modified,too
Unfortunatelly,AA,infrantry guns and mortars was obsolate - except 37mm McLean gun,which could be your AT.

Imperator Pax · Jul 31, 2021

Late November 1913
Part 1

"Will the new guy give us trouble?"

"I don't know." Allen replied honestly, before sitting down in the chair. They were in the Company's small Peking office. They kept the space here, and of course in Tietsin for business, but mostly it was to handle shipping, exports out of China. "Reinsch and I spoke at length over the business side of what the reforms state side will mean and the lowering of tariffs, should mean more money in our pockets."

"Yeah, Bai's still running around." Sam grunted. "Any word from Edenborn about more tractors?"

He glanced to Griswold. "We might get some but it'll be January at the earliest, Percy is more likely come through for us on those guns."

"I am so tired of fixing those damn potato diggers. Mind you I'm tired of working of the Maxims too, but," He shook his head. "What do you reckon, could you churn some out?"

"Sure," Allen responded before he could stop himself, "But," And that was the bad news, "Is that I could but It'd take just as long for us to get some shipped from the states," And there would be a learning curve for building them. That they had built road tractors before, mostly to haul trees, or pull trams at the mines... well it wouldn't be that different, but, "I guess we need to do it since you keep pulling your Krupps around with the Pavesi." Thus far Griswold hadn't managed to break it, which was good sign of its durability.

The railway outwest being open now meant they had a mobility that would outstrip anyone else in the sense of moving between the points along the rail. Even if it did shape up to be a mild winter as he expected it to, and it wasn't as if he'd somehow forgotten that taken all together Bai's numbers accounted to a strength greater than half the size of the National Army. It was doubtful that the brigades that had split off far to the south could make it this far without notice, but they weren't the only ones. "Have to do it before the crops turn. January, or February," That would most likely be when... if Bai Lang decided to mount another large recruiting drive.

If Bai Lang hadn't been a concern then they'd likely have been occupied with talks about needing to expand the office here, bring on new staff... what with Wilson's signature on the free trade legislation. They would still need to do that but Bai Lang represented a significant instability, and that was bad for business. "Speaking of guns," Griswold nodded and admitted that he too had heard Hayashi's long winded rant, rather explanation to the Arisakas. "Yeah, though I suspect that is all for international consumption." Or to deflect attention back home. Hayashi's explanation to the Arisaka question was that the guns weren't Japanese at all, or rather than that they were guns that had already been in China and had been sold to the Qing dynasty. While it was certainly true that the Gewehr 88, and its variations were the most common long arm in the country everyone from the Beiyang Army, the post office, down to the local constable and bandit leaders had a range of other weapons both newer as well as older. Hayashi's deflection was about the whiff of corruption, the accusation to shift eyes elsewhere because it might in some sliver be potentially true. Some of the Arisakas might have been ordered by the Manchu court, but the Qing had been perennially short on money and Allen wouldn't have been surprised if they had had ordered more guns than they had been able to pay for. "Thats not the point though, I was thinking about machine guns, and artillery..." and the south, the revolutionaries, and Bai in particular's lack of it.

Giving out rifles was one thing. It had been one thing for the United States to give rifles out to the Philippines once the war was over even in spite of the fact that the National Guardsmen of the Spanish American war had still been carrying trapdoor springfields. A country, one of the recognized great powers, could afford to dispose of modern rifles in such a way, at least in some capability. "But he's likely to prevented himself either by accident or design from supplying machine guns."

Perhaps Hayashi could have gotten away with gatling guns or even some small artillery pieces... maybe stocks left over from the Russo-Japanese war. Russian weapons would have been imminently deniable even if he had to bring them into a northern port, call it smuggling and say it was just some bad apples, and it would be hard to prove otherwise. Japanese ammunition manufacture for its artillery was poor, and any ammunition left over in stocks probably in the greatest condition besides. "It also means Bai Lang probably won't ask, assuming Hayashi did directly involve himself," Which would be hard to prove.

Realistically he doubted they'd ever catch him red handed. Even if they could at best it would just mean Hayashi being recalled back to Japan, and probably even then either retire quietly or get posted somewhere less contentious... somewhere in the British Empire most likely. Even that mild of rebuke might not happen, Hayashi had powerful connections even if they could prove something worth a handslap Hayashi might not get one.

"Was this for the new guy's consumption?"

"I doubt it, John Jordan most likely, or the French." He admitted. The brigades in Canton could very well link up with revolutionaries in Yunnan and that might make the French feel a little froggy... and Hayashi might well have been trying to stop another round of concession extractions before it started. It was all too clear he wasn't particularly happy with the end of the second revolution even if he had benefitted from it. "I don't think Hayashi cares about Reinsch just yet." The Wilson government's general position seemed to have resonated with Japan, particularly the same free trade oriented reforms that would hopefully put money in their own pockets. Whether that would keep Hayashi from doing anything was doubtful, but recent British gains were the more likely explanation to the tirade. "Yuan's is himself too concerned with the international matter," Hayashi had to know that as well and by drawing attention to perceived corruption... "No, lack of heavier weapons is good for us."

It wasn't impossible that Bai Lang would have been able to breach the town walls of an old fortified settlement. You could storm the old bastions with manpower, or mount a night time incursion, infiltrate or so on, but all of that was risky. "Did the ambassador happen to see any of the fighting around Shanghai?"

"I don't think so," Allen replied after a moment of consideration. Reinsch had said he'd been in Shanghai in October, "I don't want read to much into any claims of 'punitive expedition to punish Yuan Shikai' as a banner name there than I do when I see reports of Bai Lang's boys flying it." Someone had deemed the string of characters to be a sufficiently revolutionary name, and they were running with it, but it was best not too make so many assumptions. "I believe the English referred to it as taking the shillings on the drum or something," Apparently Chen, one of the Rebel 'Generals' in Shanghai had evoked memories of British recruiters for the army back in July. Allen knew that even months now after they had only a partial picture of what all had played out elsewhere in the large country. "I admit Bai Lang could be using the telegraph, or more likely running couriers with messages to the good doctor, but I sincerly doubt it."

As fine as an orator as Sun Yat-sen could be, and well as he could play a crowd he had no acumen towards arms, or its application of. Bai Lang may have liked the man, but Jun was probably right in that revenge against Yuan Shikai in whatever means he could get it was probably the bigger priority... or failing that personal glory, or wealth. If messages had been passed directly from Bai to Sun or vice versa through Huang... well they would probably never know for sure.

Griswold's movement belied the general unease. The footfalls upon the step were hard to mistake, and the northern dialect of inquiry at the door from the posted sentries were crisp in their martial delivery.

It had ultimately turned out to be nothing at all. Wellington Koo had sent a runner on an errand, which was in no way out of the ordinary. As Yuan's principle secretary this would have been business as normal even without Reinsch having presented his credentials the previous Monday. Before Sun's removal from government affairs on those little things like oh plotting Treason and Rebellion and whatever else Koo had been a more frequent correspondence than Cao Kun even.

Reinsch had visited Nanking early in the month while General Zhang had been hunting for any vestiges of the 'revolutionary sentiment'. Zhang Xun's incident with the Japanese, alleged incident, and Hayashi's histrionics about disrespect to the flag had resulted in Zhang's return north, even if that had only been ordered after Yuan had been confident in international recognition.

Zhang was being promoted to Field Marshal... though exactly how that differed from general in the Beiyang army way of running things eluded Allen. The presence of the Wu Wei corp of the Beiyang Army was more distinguished by its feel than any real political differences. Despite having cut his queue Yuan Shikai hadn't forced the predominantly Manchu, and Hui troops of the corp, or insist the ponytail general himself do it. Nor had the corps uniform changed from black to gray. Zhang was apparently that politically reliable as far as Yuan was concerned, so even if the Jackets were in the newer style they remained in black.

... the Foreign missions within the capital though? They were less convinced, to say the least, and while Wellington wasn't worried about Zhang he was worried how Reinsch might react to the swelling of troops in Peking even if it was for only a nominally short period of respite for celebrations and what not.
--
Commentary:
Scheduling for August is thus tentative, but the standard updates will likely be Sunday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday. Before I address this, Thursday I had some technical difficulties with my computer again, so most likely I'm going to be reorganizing this story in particular. AoE as a timeline I have lot of actual academic material for, and quite frankly I need to take the digital stuff and sort it anyway. This is one of the stories I can pretty much assure updates for every Saturday for like the rest of the year, even if that means going onto the continuation, (the original main fic), in 1916. Quite frankly thats under rewrite but it will go on for quite a while material wise, but there will be a timeskip of the epilogue of White Wolf 'Europe is at War' news, and then the opening of the main where Yuan Shikai has just recently passed away. [and by this point Zhang Xun would have switched over to gray uniforms for his troops having probably done so in 1915, maybe. Sources conflict on this.]

So for people who read my JumpChain story, SG1 updates on Friday that will continue, and HPGENFANFIC will continue to be Wednesday in the Jump thread. What will happen in August is that while it won't be a standard update there will be some variation is that the MCU Jump story will start introducing bits from Netflix. I'm planning three MCU updates in August, and at least one Percy Jackson jump story update. Those will probably be a Thursday thing.

I am tentatively going to say that the Out of the Dark update will be the last Monday of the month, so the thirtieth.

Imperator Pax · Jul 31, 2021

ATP said:
I read,that british army buy only small number of HMG,becouse....nobody knew why.I once read that they thought that HMG should be used only against savages,not another white man.But,even for british,it is too stupid.

Now,i get a book about soviet artillery,and it is also about with what they started - so,i knew what tsar had:
1.Schneider 76mm for calvary and infrantry variant.-in 1913 russians consideret it as obsolate.
2.Schneider 76mm mountain gun/1909/.from 1916 they start delivered variant for normal infrantry/close support/
3.122 mm Krupp howitzer/1909/
4.122mm Schneider howitzer/1910/ do not ask me,why they produced both.
5.107mm Schneider heavy gun/1910/
6.152mm Schneider howitzer/1910/
7.In 1914 they take 76mm gun and modified it to be AA.but it was only half-measure and never really mass produced
8.mortars - they copied french and made their own 47mm/400m range/ and 89mm,but all during WW1.
9.in 1916 they start producing 37mm trench guns - both russian and american/McLean-automatic gun/
MClEAN WAS READY IN 1909!. So,you could buy it from USA in 1913 - especially,that nobody wanted it - you get it cheap!.
And it would be wery good AT guns against light tanks.

All that guns/or most of them/ you could capture when Russia fall.Take engineers running from soviet paradise,too.

You need trucks - but you should buy them from USA.Till 1917 it should be possible.Hold tractors for heavy artillery,too.

P.S i still would like to see Neandrtals in napoleon -style uniforms !
But even if it would not be possible - soviets in OTL modified 122mm and 152mm howitzers before WW2,so your SI could do the same.
76mm gun was modified,too
Unfortunatelly,AA,infrantry guns and mortars was obsolate - except 37mm McLean gun,which could be your AT.

Part of it was money. The British Army was the less prestigious arm of the military, and machine guns had not been especially useful in the Boer wars, which had been what prompted the British to adopt the SMLE from the long lees and by some of what I've read the implication seems to be that on top of money there was a lot of institutional inertia that Infantry in the army was what won battles, and that it was better to go ahead and spend that money adopting a universal 'short rifle' than trying to purchase maxims for which there wasn't much doctrine for. Another part of the issue was that the British Army was a purely professional force and as a result when war was declared there was resistance to the Draft from the army side of things. It happened but the maxim being more popular with the Royal Navy seems to be a case of money, and the Navy clearly having a doctrine for it. Also in Army service Machine guns were part of the artillery, who probably didn't much appreciate its presence

Schneider had a large Russian export, (were large exporters alongside Hotchkiss to begin with) and the Russians had been buying basically whatever they could get, and part of this was just a result of how Russian procurement went, was odd throughout the last half of the Empire. Schneider's 75mm gun (1897) is largely thought as the very first modern artillery piece, but it wasn't the only revolutionary design to be produced by Schneider, and Hotchkiss had them beat by several years with the 37mm rotary canon which was itself widely popular, and was what originally made Hotchkiss the success in the arms industry. What the Russian army ultimately did do was after the Greek Army trials in 1904 IIRC decide to follow suit in adopting mountain guns in 76mm those trials had pitted a Krupp entrant against a Schneider with the Greeks deciding the Schneider was better. It was less clear cut with the 122mm howitzer, and Russia had made all of these purchases in response to the panic of the 1905 Revolution, and the defeat against Japan, so they basically bought both Krupp and Schneider Howitzers and both were admirable designs with no major flaws that could be purchased on the open market and then domestically produced them and that continued with soviet modernization.

Sometimes expediency is its own geopolitical agenda. The 122mm are an example of that where better to have two models of guns especially since they could both take the same ammunition (and they did 122x159R.), and this sort of shows with the soviets updating them and keeping both in service during the interwar years.

As for mortars, modern mortars really developed from the Russo-Japanese war, even though they proliferated during World War 1, Stoke's 3 Inch mortar succeeded not just because it was a great design, but also because Stokes had political connections, and thats part of the reason why in the post 1915 story the cadre adopts production of the Stokes mortar for production, which was something that French arsenal system / government wasn't as readily willing to do during the war, where as Britain's war ministry was.

As to the McClean gun, the biggest issue with it, is powder fouling but thats a good idea. I may not use it, but we will see, as it would potentially work well in the inter war years especially. The biggest issue is that it failed US trials both times before the war, which I willl see about looking it up, but could have just been someone in Ordinance who had issue with something or other that caused, or contributed to rejection given the Russians did later adopt it, and it saw service with the Finns during the winter war so I doubt it was especially finicky.

ATP · Jul 31, 2021

According to wiki,USA would buy AA version of 37mm McClean guns with better powder,but war ended and nothing come of it.You still could buy it,it would be chaeaper.

P.S i accidentally discovered that german lost their HC Blucher during WW2 to Norwegian using old A-H naval guns and torpedoes/most of them malfunctioned/
Norvegia buy it very cheap when A-H ceased to exist and Austria must sold all their naval armament cheaply and quickly.

A-H also produced good fighters and engines,and must destroy them all.Your SI could buy them ,too.
Engines - Austro-Daimler and Warchałowski - Eissler,
planes - german Albatross D.3 with stronger austrian engine,And austrian aviatik/Berg D.1 Last construction was modernized german Brandenburg D.1 produced as Phonix D.1/2/3.
Later Sweden produced it as J.1.

All was good,but becouse Berg was produced in 6 various factories and was not german construction,it would be probably most easy to get.

Skoda guns was taken by Czech,so you could not get them cheapely.

Imperator Pax · Jul 31, 2021

ATP said:
According to wiki,USA would buy AA version of 37mm McClean guns with better powder,but war ended and nothing come of it.You still could buy it,it would be chaeaper.

P.S i accidentally discovered that german lost their HC Blucher during WW2 to Norwegian using old A-H naval guns and torpedoes/most of them malfunctioned/
Norvegia buy it very cheap when A-H ceased to exist and Austria must sold all their naval armament cheaply and quickly.

A-H also produced good fighters and engines,and must destroy them all.Your SI could buy them ,too.
Engines - Austro-Daimler and Warchałowski - Eissler,
planes - german Albatross D.3 with stronger austrian engine,And austrian aviatik/Berg D.1 Last construction was modernized german Brandenburg D.1 produced as Phonix D.1/2/3.
Later Sweden produced it as J.1.

All was good,but becouse Berg was produced in 6 various factories and was not german construction,it would be probably most easy to get.

Skoda guns was taken by Czech,so you could not get them cheapely.

This is something I've considered but the primary issue is that in 1919, the May 5th agreement goes into effect, this is Arm Embargo that entered into force that day specifically limitted of what could be brought into China, this included Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium Italy, the UK, Spain, the US, France, Japan, Russia (eye roll here), Brasil, and Portugal. I can't find a specific statement that Norway signed onto this agreement (though I wouldn't be surprised if I did) but Norway's government in 1919 was operating under some quirky policies. Skoda (the Czechs,) and Sweden are as a result of this bit of international wrangling end up supplying a lot of the inter war years equipment and tooling up as a lot of the heavier equipment, 'military machine tooling' and so forth continued to be unavailable until the late twenties when most of the signatory decided 'ok this is dumb' (and certainly it was true that a lot of people were flagrantly violating (cough Vickers cough) the May 5th agreement, just not in 1919 when it first went into effect.)

In short without being overly spoilery for winter into spring of 1918-19 there is a very brief period where the Trade Mission is going to go spend crazy particularly in Feburary and march of 1919 but then the spigot gets slammed shut and most foreign procurement 'legally' shifts to Sweden, Switzerland, the Czechs, and then gradually Great Britian in the mid twenties, Germany, and the United States as things open back up.

The Weimar Government was invited to the treaty (I don't know off hand if they ever signed, but they were apparently open to the idea in 1926, but had not apparently signed on to it in 28), but the US State Department was actively trying to stop arms trade (including from non signatories, Czechoslovakia) even into 1928 because there was still relatively strong support for it in the US government which lasted until 1929 even though by that point it was basically recognition that it hadn't worked and the US more or less claimed a win because of the Northern expedition had sort of united the country more or less.
CC Batchelder at the time wrote:

"The Commercial aspect of the matter is that american concerns are losing many profitable sales of munitions, as the US governments seems to be the only one which attempts to prevent its nationals from securing munitions contracts. The Arms embargo is a dead letter except as regards americans."

This is slightly hyperbole, the danes by all indications attempted to deter their firms from selling arms, that didn't stop madsens and other arms from showing up in the twenties but the government of denmark at least didn't consider the arms embargo a dead letter they were just somewhat ineffectual within a few years.

ATP · Aug 1, 2021

Imperator Pax said:
This is something I've considered but the primary issue is that in 1919, the May 5th agreement goes into effect, this is Arm Embargo that entered into force that day specifically limitted of what could be brought into China, this included Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium Italy, the UK, Spain, the US, France, Japan, Russia (eye roll here), Brasil, and Portugal. I can't find a specific statement that Norway signed onto this agreement (though I wouldn't be surprised if I did) but Norway's government in 1919 was operating under some quirky policies. Skoda (the Czechs,) and Sweden are as a result of this bit of international wrangling end up supplying a lot of the inter war years equipment and tooling up as a lot of the heavier equipment, 'military machine tooling' and so forth continued to be unavailable until the late twenties when most of the signatory decided 'ok this is dumb' (and certainly it was true that a lot of people were flagrantly violating (cough Vickers cough) the May 5th agreement, just not in 1919 when it first went into effect.)

In short without being overly spoilery for winter into spring of 1918-19 there is a very brief period where the Trade Mission is going to go spend crazy particularly in Feburary and march of 1919 but then the spigot gets slammed shut and most foreign procurement 'legally' shifts to Sweden, Switzerland, the Czechs, and then gradually Great Britian in the mid twenties, Germany, and the United States as things open back up.

The Weimar Government was invited to the treaty (I don't know off hand if they ever signed, but they were apparently open to the idea in 1926, but had not apparently signed on to it in 28), but the US State Department was actively trying to stop arms trade (including from non signatories, Czechoslovakia) even into 1928 because there was still relatively strong support for it in the US government which lasted until 1929 even though by that point it was basically recognition that it hadn't worked and the US more or less claimed a win because of the Northern expedition had sort of united the country more or less.
CC Batchelder at the time wrote:

This is slightly hyperbole, the danes by all indications attempted to deter their firms from selling arms, that didn't stop madsens and other arms from showing up in the twenties but the government of denmark at least didn't consider the arms embargo a dead letter they were just somewhat ineffectual within a few years.

So,A-H and german stuff you could only buy from Sweden and Czech.Pity.But - as you mentioned,maybe Norwegian could buy it for you.

Imperator Pax · Aug 1, 2021

ATP said:
So,A-H and german stuff you could only buy from Sweden and Czech.Pity.But - as you mentioned,maybe Norwegian could buy it for you.

Yeah, I'm in the process of looking up of looking that

... by which I mean I asked someone else about Norwegian foreign policy in the period, but while I haven't found concrete evidence that they signed on to the arms embargo (certainly it doesn't seem to have done so in 1919) the general policy of neutrality probably eliminates them at least before 1921. Sweden and the Czechs are probably the most likely.

Anything from England will have to be from an English firm like Vickers, though Hadley Page and a few others willfully circumvented the May 5th agreement repeatedly despite John Jordan (UK Ambassador, and architect of the agreement) complaining, so yeah its something I'm looking into.

And then with Germany the advantage is they blatantly lied even during the Weimar republic of 'oh no this stuff is totally stuff we had at the end of the war' regarding military equipment being developed and then labelled Model 1919 or otherwise implied to have been from that, and then general sold via Sweden or the Swiss.

ATP · Aug 4, 2021

Imperator Pax said:
Yeah, I'm in the process of looking up of looking that

... by which I mean I asked someone else about Norwegian foreign policy in the period, but while I haven't found concrete evidence that they signed on to the arms embargo (certainly it doesn't seem to have done so in 1919) the general policy of neutrality probably eliminates them at least before 1921. Sweden and the Czechs are probably the most likely.

Anything from England will have to be from an English firm like Vickers, though Hadley Page and a few others willfully circumvented the May 5th agreement repeatedly despite John Jordan (UK Ambassador, and architect of the agreement) complaining, so yeah its something I'm looking into.

And then with Germany the advantage is they blatantly lied even during the Weimar republic of 'oh no this stuff is totally stuff we had at the end of the war' regarding military equipment being developed and then labelled Model 1919 or otherwise implied to have been from that, and then general sold via Sweden or the Swiss.

Soviet howitzer 122mm M-30/1938/ and 152mm ML-20/1937/,and 76mm guns,was modified version of Schneider guns.Modified after WW1 thanks to german help.If soviets could hire german engineers to modernize their guns,you could do the same.
Or just buy their newest version of 105mm and 150mm howitzers.

Other planes you could buy cheaply in 1919:
A-H - Brandenburg W18 /german construction/ flying boat fighter.

Germany - recon float plane used also as fighter - Brandenburg W.29.After WW1 and Denmark/15/ buyed them,and Norwegia/35/ ,Finland/122/and Japan/310/ mass produced it.

I arleady mentioned it,but Pfalz made D.12 fighter/and D.14 prototype/,LGF /Roland/ made Roland D.6,and Siemens -Schuckert D.3. You could choose any of them,becouse Fokker would go to Holland.
There was also Albatros and Junkers with monoplane D.1But,according to what i read,it have some problems.

That would be all for now.
P.S 37mm Mcclean gun tend to malfunction,so unless SI get better version maybe it is no good idea for AA and AT gun.Ecpecially,that at least till 1932 he do not need dedicate AT guns.

ATP · Aug 6, 2021

I forget about bombers.Both Germany and Allies do not have them before WW1,but Russia made first airliner/Illia Muromiec/ in 1913,and in 1914 they turn it into good bomber.Only one was schoot down by german fighters in 1916,and even then it took 3 germans with it.
Other,this time dedicated bomber is italian Caproni Ca1 made 1914.Better version Ca2 and Ca3 was made later.

You could probably buy plans for any of them during WW1.Illia Muromiec would be better,i think.

Imperator Pax · Aug 7, 2021

Late November 1913
Part 2

The British band down on the floor swelled to its conclusion and the party goers clapped politely.

The thing about the end to the 'Second Revolution' was regardless of Zhang's presence or any of the other Beiyang officers and their staff was that it meant a perceived return to normal business. Vickers, Siemens, were only really two of the names of those great globe striding companies with offices in the Chinese Capital and who's officers were present at dinner parties, and soirees. Everyone was here, and for most part English was the language spoken... the British Empire strode the globe and companies like Vickers knew it. This was the ideal scene to finalize details and matters with Percy.

"Is the contracting paperwork finished?" Forrest Senior asked putting the scotch and soda water to the side.

The son put his own aside, "Just about. There are a few more details. We'll have to work things out with the Swiss," But that wasn't likely to be any trouble, Bert and a couple of the other guys could do with a trip to Europe anyway. The wonder of steam ships no longer dependent on the wind made it so there were no concerns such as those that had been in the days of the East India Company a ship could make for Europe and be there several weeks, and of course an American travelling to Europe from China and going back wouldn't attract much in the way of attention. They had letters from John Jordan anyway, and the British Foreign Service. "Its as good of time as any for a visit," Bert would be able to visit Italy and Belgium as well and wherever else. "Reinsch say something?"

"He requested your academic file from West Point. I expect given the thoroughness on display he'll request the service jackets and and material from the rest of your conglomerate in due time. I know he's spoken to Pershing by telephone as well." The latter was less of a surprise, nor was it really a surprise when the elder Forrest glanced down from the bannister at one of the Vicker's officers, "Pershing asked me whether you've tested Lewis's gun in eight millimeter?"

"Not personally, Sam has done a couple of tool room guns."

"Do they work?"

He shrugged. Griswold liked them better than working with the potato diggers, and Maxims, but that might have just been they were something new. "I suppose so," But they were labor intensive and the machining, a trip to Denmark for more Madsens wasn't a terrible idea for a prospective outing to Europe. "Griswold will test them until they don't." Probably to catastrophic failure inside of a rest.

"So they work." The old man settled on, "Going to mount them on air planes, are you?"

"I don't have any air planes, you know that."

"Have you shown them to Yuan?"

"Not as of yet." There was a matter of cost there. Yuan would have been interested in such a design... and yeah the friend of friend angle would have encouraged him towards interest in such a new weapon, but Yuan had a tendency towards sticker shock for new weapons even as much as he wanted to modernize his northern army. "The Beiyang has expended a lot of money as of late," Burned through a substantial portion of its budget that had been intended to last through 1915 more like. "and Yuan still wants to downsize the army." Something he couldn't do with the south restive as it was.

"Even after those Danish Madsens of Cai's?"

"Yuan has some Madsens," Or Rexers, "of his own," Or Second Division had had some, and they were probably not the only Beiyang division, "The Hotchkiss performed well too." No, Yuan would listen to his officers and since of course none of them would agree on which machine gun was best things would likely stall out for a while until both money and a compromise could be figured. Neither of those were likely to happen any time soon. Allen picked up his glass and took a sip, "Is this about Colt?"

"More about General Crozier, if you start testing, I want copies before anything is published, and certainly before its released for circulation."

It was an absurd ask for the old man to make. General Crozier had powerful friends, and more than that even was the ongoing argument with Isaac, and that was the larger issue. "Isaac expects copies of anything we learn, and the performance. As I just said," Between everything else going on, "Sam hasn't had much time to do anything substantive in the last few months. Next spring maybe."

"That would be good." He wondered if the old man thought things might have settled down by then, which seemed ridiculous... neither Crozier or Newton were the sort who'd just let the matter lay. "What about Shinnozaki? Have the Japanese observed any of the test.

He shook his head and sipped his whisky, as he hadn't even considered that there might be an interest there, "What's this about Nanking I've heard coming from Reinsch?"

"I don't believe the minister intends to stir things up with Zhang Xun, but he wasn't particularly happy with the situation down there." The promotion to Field Marshal was something on, and off again the subject of much gossip in a city that was drowning in rumor, and speculation. "Zhang went to call on all the consuls after the Japanese one."

"To under cut Japan's claims I suspect," Allen remarked.

"Perhaps so," Zhang Xun wasn't the only one the Minister was ducking right now, but Hayashi had the Italians to keep him company it seemed. They paused as the German marines in their new uniforms took their turn at the instruments on the stage. The Germans, and the English always seemed to alternate with one another at these sorts of events. It had become routine. "The Germans had problems maintaining a native police force the first couple of years."

"That's not why I asked John Jordan for the dispensation."

"I wasn't saying it was, but I also know you're friendly enough with the Germans to be aware of their problems."

Desertion was less of an issue for them though. It wasn't the 1890s anymore, the Qing were gone now for good and bad, and beyond that, "As Pershing would say a good soldier needs a good foundation to be built up from." and their teething experiences had really been during the Xinhai two years back, even if there would likely be problems as they put more men into the field. "Meyer-Waldeck and I have lunch the day before I leave town."

"I had heard you were sitting down with the German Governor, career navy man like that." He took a drink, "Siemens has those wireless sets, unless this is about artillery."

"Its the latter, it was something Percy has been worrying on."

"Ah export or domestic production at license of Krupp's guns. Any prospects?"

Not any time soon with the state of the Beiyang Army's budget unfortunately, but the Captain-Governor of Tsingtao was more than willing to demonstrate the artillery of III Seebatallion for the Beiyang's artillerymen. Selling locally would have been nice, that had been the whole plan for a number of projects after all.

--
Alfred's artillery demonstration saturday had been the whole spiel down to the brass band, and polished boots. The Peking detachment had shown an effective precision even if with the available drill space hadn't had the option to truly demonstrate the heavy howitzers full range. It had however been an excuse for champagne and hor d'oeuvres in the waning afternoon.

Peking, Tietsin, like Shanghai, and Canton down south though were used to these sorts of gatherings of the great power's enclaves and the turn out was substantial in the number of Chinese who came along to it. It didn't escape Allen that as much, as normal as the return to such a gathering seemed Bai Lang was still out in the field with an army of substantive number even if it was divided into separate divisions and formed into at least one north and south army each.

Only the Ottomans of the Great Powers could really be considered absent. That wasn't to say the Pasha in Constantinople was absent Asia. Letters in 1900, and onwards from the Caliph, and Grand Vizier on the US's behalf had been a vital part of operations in Sulu, and with the Moros, and various muslims in the former Spanish colony. China though? Not a priority for the House of Osman and they had never participated in the Eight Nations Alliance. To be fair of course even if they had wanted to involve themselves the Balkan wars ending the past spring had marked the lose of the last of the Ottoman possessions in the region.

Italy, and Austria-Hungary, Belgium, and Russia had all put in appearances, as had others ranging from the Dutch all the way up to of course to Hayashi making an appearance on behalf of the Japanese Emperor. John Jordan was occupied with his opposite from Russia. This was all about the game, the prestige, the pageantry put on for expats, and Chinese residents to the concessions and regular chinese citizens as well as to their leaders.

To say that business as usual was back. To assuage everyone to go back to spending money, and making money.

Cao Kun sipped his champagne even before the refilled flute could slow from bubbling, "You have some of those." It was a wholly rhetorical question even in the minister of posts a little stilted English from the drink. "I mean you can bore them out."

"We will be able to," He replied, they weren't quite to domestic production for the line. "The first batch of steel for the barrels hasn't actually been bored yet." Barrel manufacturing was a time intensive process. He noted Cao Kun had managed to get through half of the French fizz already even nodding along, "Breech blocks, springs, wheels we will be able to manufacture all of that." That had been Griswold's whole reason to getting a license from Krupps, because at some point Yuan Shikai was probably going to have wanted artillery. Krupp's local representative was busy chattering away with Griswold over who knew what arcane minutiae. "The new trail design can be used on the smaller guns you've already got, it will give them more elevation."

Cao Kun nodded, "We have bad roads, the steel wheels are nice, but I don't always have trucks even in Zhili, you know." As with machine guns, and artillery, and other equipment besides, the Beiyang divisions had a tendency to run off with each others specialist tools, "That scoundrel who still has his queue took all of mine down to Nanking."

That was news to Allen, but truthfully he wasn't surprised, "Did you get them back?" His interest piqued.

"Some of them." Cao replied waving for another flute of fizz.

He glanced back towards the gathered officers of armies, and industry. For all the perception of normality conveyed by this gather, and the others like it... it was a lie. This whole affair was a dog and pony show for public consumption.

--
Commentary: I need to point this out early, just so its been stated before, during this period the fedora is a woman's hat its only in the interwar years that men started wearing it, but it was originally worn by women from about eighteen eighty onward, generally in somewhat fancy semi formal attire and up, not really a working class piece of gear.

For this I haven't really focused on Edwardian era attire, but realistically speaking I probably should, during this period there is a lot of social transition going on not just in China, where this story is set but also globally as luxury clothes continue to proliferate.

Anyway, as to the Norway thing, basically before 1923 probably not, and by that point the market for WW1 surplus as available is complicated by the arms embargo. The best way to circumvent that is well for a signatory to go through Vickers in Britain who has enough clout that John Jordan can't do anything about it, or go through a nonsignatory like Sweden, or Czechoslovakia or Switzerland or Weimar Germany.

The other signatories it varies. Italy would be a potential option of sorts, but they have other problems, though they are providing arms into China to other people. Soviet Union, kind of obviously out even after the end of the Russian Civil War for reasons. Denmark, actually made an effort to stop arms traffic from their nationals. Netherlands up in the air especially after 23. France mixed bag lots of political changes at home, and economic issues, but post 23 aircraft are on the table, as are tanks. Japan limited options but they did sell to basically everybody at least in terms of small arms though Great Kanto Earthquake, and then the big stock market crash later in the decade. Belgium is an option FN sold to plenty of people but that's mostly limited to small arms. Spain originally skirted the treaty by selling pistols, and then they kind of just through pretending out the window. Aircraft, machine guns, autocannons, etc by the later half the decade. Brasil and Portugal I can't comment on, I know they agreed to the May 5th agreement at the onset, but I don't know what their role in it was, we know that Portuguese surplus made into China but yeah...

So the May 5th agreement of 1919 makes it difficult to source surplus ww1 equipment and military equipment in general, including machine tooling for a few years. See the quote from above post regarding what certain US figures thought about this in terms of effectiveness, the original agreement was expanded, and was attempted to be expanded. Weimar Germany, Soviet Russia (the original signatory to the original was probably Kerensky's government, or possibly even one of the early white governments, but they tried to get Soviet accession to the accord), Czechs were all invited to join. I suspect that Sweden was invited as well, but it hasn't been said anywhere, Switzerland as well I believe I have read that the US State department wanted the Swiss to sign on to the arms embargo against Honduras during this period so it wouldn't surprise me. It was followed on by a 13 power agreement a few years later (after 1919) but that was even less effect, see the quote.

As to France, I'm still checking but while they were selling new model Schneider's to Japan, the only instances of 'modern' artillery sales I can find are some Hotchkiss machine guns in 20s, and those sales probably started as war time surplus. The biggest sale of modern artillery as we would think of in modern terms appears to have been Italy apparently their 76/40 (that's barrel length) were popular with the north. France appears to have been reluctant to sell directly, and part of this seems to have been pressure from Japan, though how effective that was I don't know. The Schneider-Canet seems to show up but that may have come via the Czech legion since I don't know who would have been selling them.

Of course there was also the possibility that it was just a matter of expense, because France doesn't seem to have had an objection selling aircraft in the early twenties, in competition with Great Britain. So I digress, with regards to flagrant violations of the Arms Embargo from the British perspective (that of the Foreign Office, if not necessarily John Jordan specifically) were Italy, and Japan at least in the early twenties. They weren't really happy with the United States either, but to be honest given the context that comes off as rank hypocrisy. (Am I surprised by this... no, not at all. It is however hilarious.)

[What I will probably do when we get there, is to Index a post about the May 5th Arms Embargo of 1919 based on what I know, and possibly when and with what things started to be ignored. I suspect is the reason that France didn't allow the export of Schneider artillery, along with possibly cost, but again there are ways around that, I've already mentioned the Finns for example.]

Imperator Pax · Aug 14, 2021

Late November 1913
Part 3

The return trip had been as mild as the weather. There had been no disturbances, and nothing to impede the return to work. The train had gotten up to its clip of sixty miles an hour, and taken them back, and if any of the other riders of the deep blue cars had noticed the men aboard with their Brownings it had not been commented on. Allen truthfully had spent his time in the forward carriage looming over the map of the rail line as it was now in service.

The line west specifically, and the direct link into the interior stirred thoughts of how it had all began... how the rail had started. Yuan Shikai had always been a modernizer not just in military affairs, but in all the ways technology improved life. The railway, the telegram were important parts of that, and had been that subject to which they had spoken at length on in the hermit kingdom a decade previous. In 1908 there was enough influence at the Qing court to get somewhere on it, to get started on what would eventually blossom into everything they had now.

Yuan had been born before the war between the states. His dismissal of the peasant rebellion that constantly wracked the Qing empire made sense. There had been literally hundreds of them through the empire over Yuan's lifetime. Small ones, big ones, Yuan had been only a child when the Taiping rebellion had been crushed and no other rebellion in the empire came close to that catastrophic conflict was recorded to have been.

The letter waiting from Yamagata had come by courier, apparently the old man didn't trust the post system. It had instead been hand ferried from the peninsula through Shinozaki's immediate superior, which was of course confirmed by his stamp on the paper. It along with Edenborn's latest letter, and a few others carried with them the news. He made the decision that he'd write to Isaac, but first there was testing to be done. There would be men needed to send to Europe as well.

It was good to be back. Peking was nice to visit, Tietsin as well, and certainly preferable to the cities down south. The older concessions. There were going to be talks about what everything that was going on was going to mean. It was more than just that. "Was he serious about that cure thing?"

He glanced at Griswold. "Yuan..." How to put it nicely. Yuan had been born before the war between the states, and to a family never blessed with longevity, "He's starting to feel old. Is his family cursed? I don't think so... but its true they tend to burn bright and die young."

"Guess its best if Bill's daddy doesn't visit?"

"I imagine they'd get along quite well."

"The colonel is near to eighty, and is still sporting."

"I know, but I do not think Yuan would be anything but impressed." He shrugged, "Regardless we need to prepare for a meeting. Have you heard anything from Shellman?"

"I have not."

That was a pity. He'd been hoping for a telegram and some idea of progress. "My daddy mentioned Siemen's wireless sets. It didn't occur to me at the time, but I recall reading, some Russian Naval Officer's publication," Isaac would have known the man's name. "On the application of range finding of artillery based on Dabble."

"Yeah, we borrowed a similar idea from the French."

"I know," Isaac had gone at length about it, more than once about milliradians, and the calculations of an estimated height of an object to determine its distance. "But if we could bait Bai into committing into the field, those 15 cm guns could determine any enemy distance first, and then relay that distance and engage without those guns first committed."

"Sure, the navy has experimented with combination range finding. Think the brits have done it with balloon and heliographs can't imagine its impossible. We have field telephones though. At ninety five hundred yards there's no reason for wireless sets, no the main advantage Allen is the weight of the-" He stopped, "Tell me he isn't?"

"Its just an idea, and realistically they'll never be ready in time. I was just using our present problem as an example."

"For your insane hypothetical if you had to wireless sets you could tell one gun battery what another had figured for distance allowing it to zero on an enemy position such that they would not have any warning before the second battery opened."

"That's what I thought." He responded. "So, how long until Dawes or any of our other red leg friends happen to think of it?"
--
November nearly over it was time to pen letters, and cards for Christmas back home. He probably should have already written them as a precaution there was no telling what delays would be in store but it was something to do, and a long list. By the end of the day, never mind all of the normal writing his job entailed the bones in his hand ached.

The days were so much shorter now, but it also signaled that it was unlikely that any bandit army would try for any sort of long march across the country. The simple method of season 'troops' volunteering for a season and returning to their farms off and on precluded Bai from likely making any sort of sweeping gesture until at least the new year... or at least so was conventional wisdom. Bai Lang would need to secure winter quarters for his jia before the new year, but more realistically even that would fall to local bandit leaders at the 'brigade', or perhaps even down to the battalion level.

He'd been told this, over, and over again but most especially by Cao... and he was having doubts. Sure, large swathes of the army he could believe were dispersed, maybe that was true, and the army in or heading for Yuunan was probably done fighting for the year maybe. The idea of the Arisakas so recently delivered to Bai Lang's troops, and the still stready stream of propaganda leaflets made him consider that at least some professional corp of Bai lang's veritable horde intended to do something over the winter months.

He was less certain on Jun's reading that it was implicitly natural that Bai Lang would try for something as grandiose as a march in land now, but there were plenty of reasons why that might make strategic sense. The propanda value was there too, even if Bai wasn't actually trying to declare him Emperor or whatever. The idea, the claim he could make that he'd taken some ancient storied city like Xian was too dangerous to not contend. With a million people living there and far from the sea the cost to remove him from the city would be too much.

Letting him take the city was unacceptable for other reasons, but never mind that one. He rubbed his eyes as the electric lights of the sitting room fought the hour's dark, and Jun dismissed the server who'd placed the tea on the table. "The British's only concern from 1906 to 1911 was in building a rail to stretch from Hong Kong to Peking." Only concern might have been stretching it, but certainly it seemed if John Jordan had always been rushing to fight some fire or another regarding that railway project, or the one for Shanghai... the matter of finance, and issue of the provinces... and then of course to resolve all that neatly the Qing court had decided the provinces were taking too long to be effective... and thus the railway protests that followed in may... and then the following autumn the outbreak in Wuchang.

"I remember something to that affect," He replied reaching to inch the newspaper closer to his side of the table, but he already had a good idea of what it said. Allen wasn't entirely sure exactly how many newspapers there were in the country, or just in the south, but Shanghai probably had at least fifty, and possibly as many as a hundred any given year. They published, lived fast and died, consumed in an ever competing cuthroat market looking for readers.

Yuan had complained, had pivoted his complaining now that the national assembly had been officially disolved that their job had been to draw up a written constitution. It didn't surprise Allen that by preference Yuan would have liked something along the Prussian, German model of governance. That had been the opinion also of the Japanese, though Reinsch hopefully would have the good sense not to point that out... if only at least because of the various 'seditious delinquents' who had fled from the country had largely now relocated to Japan. It seemed somewhat silly to call the southern doctor a delinquent given he was only six or seven year Yuan's junior... but such was the rhetoric.

Allen didn't expect a constitution convention such that Reinsch would have liked any time soon, and the newspaper's publication with its sprawling broadsheet in front was openly critical of goings on in Peking, and full of praise for Bai Lang, Huang Xing, and Sun Yat-sen, but didn't go so far as to reiterate openly Bai's own leaflets calling for a 'third revolution'.

"Admiral Tseng will probably shutter the paper," Either on his own accord, or by the receipt of Peking's order to do so. The Beiyang Admiral who was governor of the city for such that the international city could be said to have a chinese governor was a tolerant fellow, but neither he, nor the British were likely to be particularly thrilled by this sort of carrying on. It would have been different if the rebels hadn't had to be thrown back from the Woosung forts in the summer months.

.. but that wasn't really the point he supposed. The publications sprang up and spoke on such things vying and vying for readers, and it was obvious that there was still a significant market for such revolutionary chatter particularly in the south, and for that matter Peking had no shortage of readers for such complaints against the government.

The Peking paper beneath the Shanghai though was too busy making fun of Yuan's return to Confucianism as official state creed. The quote of 'the whole chinese people hold the doctrines of Confucius most sacred' being mocked in a cartoon from the University's paper was less of a concern, even if its very existence was actually kind of funny, than what this would be internationally. "As for that, I can already hear the missionaries complaining. Reinsch must be already swamped with protests from the methodists, and baptists," and all the rest, "To do something to stop this backslide into pagan barbarism." and John Jordan was likely to be subjected to the same airs. Agitated missionaries meant public disturbances, meant public incidents that could be used as an excuse for one party or another to claim injury.

--
Commentary: This is mostly slice of life, because this is one of the stories to which well this in particular is mostly plotted to its conclusion. Certainly its all outlined, but this is an eye towards more common events. Yuan Shikai remained relatively popular throughout his life, certainly in the north, and the countryside, and much the demonization his reputation underwent did not start until that whole try and make himself emperor affair. However there were people who did speak out, and this was predominantly members of China's emerging middle class intellectuals, students. That's a trend that will continue in the warlord period in Peking, Shanghai, Hong Kong etc, but the idea that Yuan was some kind of rote stock movie villain is an invention of the late forties.

Yuan's critics in early years of the republic didn't view him in this way for the most part. There were some who did, but again most of that emerged a few years from now and it only exploded in 1916 after Yuan's death. Bai Lang for example seems to have had little personal quibble with Yuan Shikai until his mentor was killed, and likely fearing for his own life made a wide array of political alliances. Now, I personally suspect that Bai Lang at least believed somewhat in his political message, but I accept that he was willing to compromise on politics in the face of real politik.

However due to western pressure Yuan avoided simply ending any pretense of free speech. Newspapers actually operated throughout the Warlord period, and while repression did happen most journalists felt confident to come out and speak about the people in charge. The eulogy of the dogmeat general is just one example of this, but it was not free press as exists in the west today. Journalists in 1913 could have been jailed or killed and this resulted in a number of publications using the foreign concessions as legal shields (a practice that had actually begun during the Qing). French Shanghai was a particular example of this, and the French quarter would shelter the early communist movement throughout the twenties.

ATP · Aug 14, 2021

slow life - as it should be.SI would have no chance to conqer anything till WW1 start.Then,when all empires would be fighting elsywher,he should quaitly take as much as possible till 1918.
Then lie down again,takeall useful russian refugees,and start making factories of russian weapons.Buy what he need when A-H cease to exist,from Germany ,too.
In 1920 take ,if it is possible,as much russian lands as he could.

Then wait for Wall Street crizis and take as much as possible territories again.Take technology from countries which could not harm you,like Sweden,Holland or Switzerland.Czech and Poland,too.

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